March 8^th is International women’s day! I felt it is time for us in Sulekha Blogger’s world to discuss about the problems of women. So I requested , Uppili, Queen Bee, Maria S, Dev Kumar VasudevanChiksunny, Keyaa 1 Manjul Bajaj to participate in the discussion on various issues relating to women.All the participants are very well known bloggers @ Sulekha and do not need any further introduction !

I hope all of you enjoy the various topics discussed here and also express your opinions on these topics.

Welcome Uppili, Queen Bee, Maria S, Dev Kumar Vasudevan Chiksunny, Keyaa 1 Manjul Bajaj    to page 3 of Indu. Thank you very much for accepting my invitation to be my guests @ Page 3 of Indu.

Shall we start our discussion?

Indu                          What is feminism according to you? Do you believe in feminism?

Queen Bee                    arre yaar ye feminism etc meri samajh me nahin aata. i m a simple person with simple life.

Indu      Living Simple life is the happiest life Queen Bee. So Uppili sir what do you say?

Uppili                       Yes.... But not the bra-burning type. It should be a legitimate movement that glorifies the womanhood with all its positives. It should be something to prove that women are equal contributors to humanity, and hence deserve equal respect and treatment from men.

 Indu          Thats interesting opinion , what do you think Maria S?

Maria S             Feminism to me in the “moral sense” is a concept which emphasizes the fundamental right of women to be treated with equal value, dignity, respect- just as men. In the “legal sense’- feminism is the political, economic, and social equality of the genders. I am grateful to all the “real feminists” who were pioneers and opened doors/fought for equality and will never take my rights for granted. 

Indu              Very apt answer , Dve sir what do you say?

Dev Kumar Vasudevan          According to me feminism is a belief in the equality of the sexes and the fight to attain this equality. I believe in the equality of the sexes and in the fight to attain it. I happen to belong to the Nair community – one of the few communities in the world which had a matrilineal system.

Indu            For the readers information matrilineal system is where  it is the husband who lives with his wife .

You can get full details about it @ the link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marumakkathayam

Dev sir very nice of you to say so !  Now your turn  chiksunny   !

  chiksunny                      Feminism is support of women’s claims to be given rights equal to those of men. In today’s world, there is evidence that both are treated alike in many countries. I believe that feminism is required at those many places where women are deprived of their rights to live as human beings; where they are subjected to injustice on many grounds; where they are treated like possessions and not individuals; where they are not given a fair chance to compete with their male counterparts; where they are humiliated, abused and treated badly … There should be a peaceful co-existence between men and women; it is not as if one is superior to the other- there needs to be maintained a broader and equal outlook on life; the realization that each has different levels of strengths and weaknesses; that it is nice to be an important person, but it is more important to be a nice human being-whether a man or a woman.

Indu              Well said , so Keyaa 1  what is your opinion?

keyaa1                       Feminism means economic, social and political freedom in a broader sense. But feminism to me means getting recognition and empowerment for the woman.

Over years women have been dominated by men. This happened because after all said and done women are physically vulnerable and therefore in the tribal societies it was not very easy for them to go out for hunting all the time. So I think this must have been the

starting point of the vocation of a home maker. Even if you see the male and female birds the female stays in the nest and the male goes out for food.

Some where down the ages because of this vulnerability man started dominating the woman and this continued for a long time. The women’s liberation movement took it to another extreme when it gave us some very radical views which were anti marriage, anti society.

The roles of man and woman are complimentary to each other. There are so many things men do better than women and vice versa. So I think feminism should about finding that delicate balance between the two sexes their roles in creating a better society.

So it is more of recognition of the woman as an individual more of empowering her. This is what I believe in.

Indu            lovely answer, ManjulaBajaj let us know about what do you think of it?

ManjulBajaj                       Indu, you aren’t allowed to ask such intellectually challenging questions on Page 3. The only reason I agreed was because you said it was for Page 3 – and I thought that’s safe – no thinking required on page 3. By the way (since the purpose of page 3 is to get noticed) my posts Two for the Ladies (1 &2) give my views on the modern woman’s dilemmas in succinct terms.

But to answer the second part of your question – I don’t think about feminism very often but when I do I mostly believe in it as long as it doesn’t involve the burning of certain undergarments in public.

Indu                       Now   when we fight so much for equal treatment with Men, do you think it is necessary to celebrate International woman’s day when there is no International Men’s Day? Let us start with Maria S

Maria S                I don’t think that it is necessary to designate a day to celebrate Women. I believe in celebrating people (men and women) all the time...in different ways!

Indu         Very strong opinion. Uppili sir what do you think?

Uppili                       Right now it is not fighting for equal treatment with men. It is more like "Women should have all the rights that men assume in doing the wrong things" They are

trying to be just as "good" as men. You don't see them fighting for opportunities to be another Sir C.V. Raman,for Chandra, Gandhi, or even for basic women's healthcare and rural education. They mostly fight for same rights that men have been using in abusing the women.

Indu                  That is interesting opinion. Dev sir   what do you say?

Dev Kumar Vasudevan                      Not at all, over the centuries men have ensured that every day is International Men’s Day.

Indu             Thats nice of you to say so, So   chiksunny       let us hear what do you think of it?

 chiksunny                  A woman is a daughter, companion, wife, mother … She brings the man out to the world through her womb. She plays on a field that is fair and commands a chance that is equal. In the olden days, generally men were the bread-winners and women, the home-keepers. Gradually the woman realized that she was capable of doing much more; that she had the potential in her and that resulted in her metamorphosis into a bread winner too - through education, equal rights and due respect, amongst other things. International Woman’s Day (March 8^th) is commemorated to mark this fact – to celebrate the joy of being a woman; to celebrate her achievements. And the equality status would never have been possible without encouragement, support and assent from the male counterparts, so the day also acknowledges their contribution.

Indu            Perfect ! So keyaa 1 can you tell us what do you think of it?

Keyaa1                      The issue according to me is not equality. There is no equality the two sexes. Women have been treated in a subservient manner for centuries. They have been treated as inferior to men and so if a day is dedicated to them then that’s not an issue. Celebrating man’s day and all these debates I feel trivalise the main issue. We have all these goddesses like Lakshmi, Durga, Saraswati even Mother Mary and we worship them and see them as powerful deities but then women are treated in an inferior manner. So celebrating this day is for recognizing the power of a woman. She can contribute to the society and without her we cannot imagine a family or a society as such.

Indu                   Thats True Keyaa 1, so Manjual Bajaj what is your opinion!

Manjul Bajaj                 All the other 364 days are International Men’s Day by default.

Indu             Hope  all men agree with that !      So let us move on to our next topic.  Do you people think that  International Woman’s day useful to the Indian woman?Let us start with     chiksunny  !

 chiksunny                  In many parts of India , especially in rural areas, there is a grave need for women to be economically independent. On this day, many establishments who work for the upliftment of such women come forward with programs for their training, employment, and self-support. The girl-child in many such homes is not even given primary education. These organizations bring about an awareness campaign and promote free schooling for those deprived of it. Women below the poverty line are encouraged to enroll for free training and later employment is given to them in the handloom industry, sericulture, etc.

Sometimes women are victims of harassment at their place of work, domestic violence, poor working conditions, low wages, eve-teasing, etc- The day focuses on these issues and finds out means to tackle them. Loans are given to women for self-entrepreneurships, as also maternity leave for those women working on daily wages.

Indu           That  true ! On this day all the state Govt and also many organizations try to do lot of help to the women.Uppili sir what do you think?

Uppili                        Internationally, the movement was after political and legal rights - the basic social structures had been already equalized. In India, women still can't drive alone safely, seek equal medical care, education, or even stay alone with raising the society's eyebrows. The social and basic structues need to be equalized. Without these, any political empowerment will only make the women equally corrupt. That has been the case with all the female leaders - Indira, Satpathi, and JJ.

Indu     Very  well said sir, So Maria what is your opinion?

Maria S                   It is up to Indian women- to make any day as useful as they wish!

As I said, I don’t think it is necessary, but I have nothing against women celebrating themselves or appreciating others. If they want to celebrate women- I would suggest volunteering to help other women, making contributions and remembering women who have helped them along the way (teachers, mentors, relatives, friends- anyone really!)

Indu           Interesting, Dve sir what is your opinion?

Dev Kumar Vasudevan               If it can be used to highlight the pitiable situation of the Indian woman it would have served its purpose. This can be a day on which decision makers all over India right down to the panchayat level examine the past year with respect to women’s issues. It could be something as simple but important as comparing the number of female births vs the number of male births.

Indu      You are right sir, Quenn Bee what do you think?

Queen Bee              i feel woman should have equal pay in all fields. the man should be able to take up burden of raising child along with a woman specially if she is working she is expected to do everything.
womens international day can be used for awareness of right to healthy living instead of usual crap.

Indu            You are perfectly right ! Keyaa1 ! Tell us about your opinion

Keyaa1                 International women’s day in India should help the Indian women to recognize their potential, help them to become economically socially and politically independent. Issues of woman’s health should be taken up. Issues like educating women and making them self reliant should be dealt with too. This should however not remain on paper some concrete plans should be made and then carried out .Another issue which needs attention is security for women. The rape cases bring forward a need to find solutions for this menace.

Indu          Thats right , so Manjul Bajaj what is your opinion?

Manjul Bajaj           I’m not sure I know the answer to this one. I guess it’s a good day to organize workshops, book releases and marches on the subject – it coalesces and brings together women centric work and thought. And of course for marketers it’s a good day to do free makeovers for women in malls (ugh) and to organize idiotic award ceremonies for ‘women achievers’ and such like.

Indu                      Okay  let move on to our next topic Female Feoticide.       We hear so much about the cases of Female Feticide
So do you  people think aborting female baby is cruel? Or basically abortions are cruel? Uppili  sir please tell us about your thinking.

Uppili                  All abortions are cruel. Sure women have the right over their body. If they are so legalistic and informed about rights, then they should also be aware of the preventive methods. They should also hold "their men" equally responsible for taking preventive measures. Selectively aborting female fetuses is even worse. That is like practicing discrimination in murders. This is same as killing someone because he is an Indian, a Harijan, a Black, a handicapped - only in this case, it is a helpless girl child which did not commit any mistake or sin.

Indu          Thats  right, so Maria S what do you think?

Maria S                     No one can defend aborting a feotus, just because it is female. However, these are complex moral issues and “personal issues” and I believe in the fundamental right of a woman to “make decisions about her body and her pregnancies”- In other words, women must have the legal right to “have the choice to terminate their pregnancies- and have safe medical termination procedures”…I do not presume what is right for other women and as we say “it is between her, her family, her doctor and her God”….The decision to “continue or end a pregnancy” is difficult enough…and it is not for me to judge a woman or add to her guilt.

Indu         Okay, Dev sir  what is your opinion ?

Dev Kumar Vasudevan               To say that aborting the female foetus is cruel is an understatement. No society can progress without a healthy sex ratio. Many communities and states in India are already paying the price for indulging in this heinous practice. India cannot become the superpower it yearns to be unless it has a healthy sex ratio. As far as abortions are concerned I feel it is the choice of the mother-to-be whether she should abort her child or not. And there could be various reasons ranging from disease to conception after rape for this.

Indu         Devi sir  very aptly put,    chiksunny    what are your thoughts?

 chiksunny                    Aborting any life- male or female is cruel. No one has the right to decide the fate of a yet to- be -born or a newly- born innocent baby. It is against the law of nature and an insult to human intelligence.

Indu           Well said, So keyaa1 what is your opinion?

Keyaa1              Female feoticide is a very serious issue. In south Delhi, one the most elite areas in Delhi and even in the country the sex ratio is the lowest. When I read this I was shocked. If this area which is the most educated and prosperous is in this counter then what about the rest of the country? What does this tell us that we don’t want women? Well a society cannot survive without her. If she is insulted and treated badly the family and the society will have to bear the burnt in the long run.

This is going against nature and we can see the serious repercussions of this. Already in Haryana the ratio is 700 women for every 1000 men. One bride is shared among five men and they are buying girls from the North East.

Another issue related to this is female infanticide. They kill young girls. I feel this is too cruel. This is due to a multitude of factors. Lack of education could be one of the reasons. Though I feel sometimes women are women’s worst enemies. The centuries of surviving under the male dominance women have unconsciously developed an anti woman attitude which reflects in their thinking. Dowry deaths, infanticides feticides have similar root causes.

Abortions are not a solution but in some cases this might be the right, when the mother is unwed or if the feotus is abnormal.

Indu             You are right, abortions are  not solutions, Manjul Bajaj what do you think about Female Foeticide

Manjul Bajaj                  Yes, I do think that female foeticide is cruel and unwise – it reflects society’s attitude to women and the imbalanced nature of its value system and priorities. And yes abortions in general are not a wonderful thing but unwanted pregnancies maybe a worse fate for many women.

Indu                   Thats right Manjul Bajaj. Another problem being faced by girls and which raised lot of discussions in schools @ Chennai is dress code for girls.      Rapes are being reported from the capital of India with alarming regularity. The latest has been the rape of a Swiss diplomat who was abducted from the IFFI parking lot and raped in her own car. The same day, a girl student was raped by a school principal.
What do you think of these instances? Many times we hear the arguments that girl’s dress sense is one of the reasons for such incidents. Do you agree with this?Dev sir let us start with your opinion.

Dev Kumar Vasudevan                Rape is a heinous crime and must be dealt with sternly so that there is a deterrent. The recent case of an Orissa cop’s son being convicted bya fast track court in Rajasthan is one example. Since the youngster has jumped bail the seriousness with which the authorities deal with the situation will also have an effect on the psyche of men who think that rape is so easy to commit. Since my teenage years I have been reading that rape has nothing to do with sex it has to do with power. To say that the dress sense of girls invites rapes is ludicrous. Why is it that we hear of six month old baby girls as well as eighty year old women being raped?

Indu         Thats right, even if  the girls wear Burkha, they can not escape it , So Maria What do you think?

Maria S                       Of course, I feel sad to hear about any instance of Rape/Sexual assault. I have worked with Rape victims/survivors for many years.and sex offenders (Rapists) as well.I am not sure if we can “entirely prevent/stop” sexual assaults, but I do think that we have to do all that we can to promote awareness as much as possible.

I know that people like to believe that a victim/survivor’s dress sense has nothing to do with it….but when one does talk to Rapists and Law Enforcement and others who work with sexual assaults we realize that there are things one can do to “minimize risks”….attracting “unwanted attention”- especially in certain situations, is NOT a good idea (not that it guarantees complete safety). So is avoiding places- where there is a lot of drinking/drug use goes on etc…there are a many other risk-reduction techniques which may help.

I wish we lived in an “ideal world” where- what a woman wears should not matter, but the reality is that it does. To me, it is NOT about a “principle”, but “safety” and it is better to be safe than sorry.

Indu         That is interesting. Uppili sir, what is your opinion?

Uppili                         Loaded question. Oxygen is needed to breath, but to carefully and safely control it is in our hands. Who would want to see a girl who is not well dressed? Or any man. But, unfortunately, men with no conscience WILL take advantage of a girl if they can get away with it - with money, power, or just due to the surrounding. Women SHOULD be careful in dressing appropriately for the occassion and be careful where they walk. EVEN men would not dare to walk in certain areas in any city and will not walk dressing in a 3-piece suit and carrying a fat wallet. Why should it be different for a woman in a mini-skirt half-drunk in the midst of 3 men in the middle of the night? It is just a way to avoid a crime and not the place or occassion to prove ones right and freedom.

Having said that, the society has to educate "BOYS" from elementary school to treat girls as equal but different. Fathers have to treat their wives properly in front of their children, female workers need to be treated fairly at workplace. The change has to be made vertically across the society.

Indu      Well said,   chiksunny   what is your opinion?

 chiksunny                 A woman can be decently clothed and yet be a victim of sexual harassment. While another may wear the barest of clothes and yet preserve her dignity. It all depends on the mind of the beholder. If it is warped, then he will try to commit the heinous act. And I don’t think any sensible woman dresses herself in any way to purposely be raped.

Indu         I agree with you , Keyaa 1 what do you think?

Keyaa 1                   Rape is something which has been there from the past. We hear of more rape cases because the media has become more effective and now women come out and tell. Then more and more have started working so there is more chance of their getting raped. Previously they were sheltered within the four walls of the house

Dressing I don’t think has any relevance to this. This is absurd. If this was the case then there should be no cases of rapes in villages where girls follow the rules.

Indu       I agree with you. So Manjul Bajaj what is your opinion?

Manjul Bajaj             Delhi is a very unsafe place for women as are many other parts of India . I don’t think a girl’s dress has anything to do with it – many more women must have been raped in saris then in spaghetti tops but I do think women should try and look after themselves better – make a safety assessment of what they are doing, where and how they are going and be prepared both mentally and physically to fight back – it does not do to wear too vulnerable or soft an attitude.

Indu              Thats right, so let us talk about the Beauty contests. Always in India there are protests before the beauty contests. So   what do you people  think of beauty contests like Miss India and Miss World? Are they necessary if so in what way? Uppili sir,

Uppili                     How is it any different from ranking the photos that are sent in response ot matrimonial ads ? People show off their schools, cars, dresses, and NOW their bodies. Besides, this world is polarising into two worlds - one materialistic extremism and the other religious extremism. The beauty contest is now controlled by the former. So people who think it is wrong can stay away from the contest - participation, viewing, etc.. Others can become part of it.

Indu,       Thats right, so Maria ?

Maria S                  I am not a fan of these contests, but, I have nothing against women “willingly” entering these contests!

Who would not want to look at beautiful women? However, as we all know- beauty contests are more about entertainment not about judging real/natural beauty…so I find all the entertainment, artificiality and “enhancements” in these contests quite amusing!

Indu       Thats interesting, Dev sir, what is your opinion?

Dev Kumar Vasudevan           I am against beauty contests. In India we have Sushmita Sen, Aishwarya Rai, and many other beauties in the film world who were discovered through beauty contests but I feel that these are demeaning to women. True talent will always surface there is no need to discover it in this humiliating manner

Indu             Okay, chiksunny  what do you think?

 chiksunny                 We conduct so many competitions-swimming, wrestling, writing, etc... Then why not beauty competitions? They bring out the best in a woman-her beauty, her brains, her dignity-and what harm is there in that? They also contribute to the welfare of the society by becoming ambassadors of love and peace across the country and globe - like working with differently abled children, etc. The main purpose of the contest should be to sincerely appreciate the excellence in these areas rather than excessive commercialization.

Indu         They judge the brain only at later stage and that too with single Qs? So Queen Bee what do you think?

 Queen Bee                but i feel to be beautiful sometimes these models literally live a very unhealthy lifestyle to be in competition and that can affect the overall image of health/beauty and brains. instead of this we can also have a miss pleasant personality contest or miss brainy contest.

Indu         That is interesting thought.So keyaa1 what do you think?

Keyaa1             The beauty contests like Miss Universe or Miss World is a non issue for me. I feel it’s a personal choice of the individual to participate in such contests. This is just like choosing any vocation, a matter of personal choice.

Indu       Okay, Manjul Bajaj can you tell us what do you think of these contests?

Manjul Bajaj          I don’t think we can wish away beauty contests – a part of the human psyche is fixated upon glamour and beauty contests feed into the whole glamour industry. Beauty contests are here to stay and my best wishes are there with any one who wishes to be Miss India or Miss World – in earlier times a woman could either be pretty or intelligent but more and more there are women out there who are pretty intelligent and not scared to look good. Beauty does not mean no-brains. And this whole business of women being treated like commodities etc. is nonsense – most of the girls who aspire to these titles are making calculated career moves.